Welcome to Yoga Scussion with Brendon Orr and Gina Clingerman | Yoga Scussion | Ep. 1

[00:00:05] Speaker A: Yoga is stillness. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Yoga is self awareness. Yoga is time tested. Yoga is unity. [00:00:22] Speaker A: Yoga is secular. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Yoga is evolution. Yoga is a never ending practice. Yoga is pretty much everything. [00:00:40] Speaker A: Yoga is spiritual. [00:00:45] Speaker B: This is Yoga Scushion. Hi, Gina. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Hey, Brandon. [00:00:52] Speaker B: So this is the first episode of Yoga Scussion, the first Yoga Scussion. [00:01:01] Speaker A: Yeah, this is our first one. So this is exciting. [00:01:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Very excited. Very excited. So we were thinking that we might just ask some questions of each other for this first episode. The format of the show may be a little different, you know, with guests and everything, but we prepared some questions to ask each other that we were comfortable sharing with each other and the world. So I believe you've prepared some questions, is that right? [00:01:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I thought I would ask you just some, like, how did you get here? And then maybe some deeper questions towards the end. So, yeah, I have these written down right here. [00:01:38] Speaker B: Great. [00:01:41] Speaker A: So should we talk about how we met before we. [00:01:46] Speaker B: I think that's actually a really good idea. Do you want to go first or shall I? In terms of what we recall, either. [00:01:55] Speaker A: Way is good for me. [00:01:56] Speaker B: When I think back, you know, I was invited to help with a teacher training at a studio in Wyoming. And I definitely didn't seek that opportunity out. It just was kind of presented to me. And I, like I've learned in life is to just take that as the universe trying to speak to you and try to say yes, be brave enough to say yes. And like, almost every time where that's happened, I'm glad that I said yes totally. Because it definitely charted a, a new, A new, A new course. And so, yeah, so I, I was helping in a mentor capacity with a crew of people leading the training. And you were another mentor in that group of mentors. And so it was great to have that, like, collegial level. It kind of felt like we were a group of people who had graduated from undergrad yoga school. [00:02:55] Speaker A: It did feel like that. [00:02:56] Speaker B: And we all had like, our graduate school interests starting to percolate. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:01] Speaker B: And those early passions were, I think, what seemingly like, informed how we were connecting with the people going through the training. But I don't know if you have a perspective on that. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know how I really, I think maybe I saw on our Facebook group for my cohort because I trained at that studio like two years previous, so I think I was second year. So they started that training and one of my friends was in the first year, and then I was second year and I think you were third year. And then we came back as either fourth or fifth year for to be mentors to mentees. But I thought, I thought I was like, maybe I should apply for this. And so I called my friend Sarah and she was like, yeah, I would do it with you. But then also at the same time, I was really nervous because I was like, what do I have to, like, what kind of knowledge do I have to impart to anybody? I'm just a person barely surviving, you know. But it turned out to be really good because it turns out I had a lot of good things to help people through their first yoga teacher training, which can be quite intense. [00:04:09] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. [00:04:10] Speaker A: And then, yeah, you were there and I just remember meeting you and feeling immediately like this is a person that I just feel super comfortable around and feel a camaraderie with. And it did feel like you graduated from undergrad and you're moving into this next level of something, whatever that is, we're. We're each exploring as beings, you know. Yeah, it did feel like kind of an undergrad grad experience. [00:04:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, you know, thinking about what I was, what was racing through my mind maybe at the time over those experiences with you, is that I was very touched and inspired. Impressed. You could use all of these words with your ability to hold space. That was whatever I was bringing as a teacher at that point in my career. I think this was an era, my teaching journey, that I was just starting to scratch the surface of. And you, it seemed like it came very effortlessly. And whether or not this was within that whole fake it until you are it or make it, like mold, like, I, like, I don't know and I don't really care, like at this juncture in life, but just letting you know that from the get go, like, seeing how effortlessly you could hold space and use your energy to influence the energy in the room. I don't even like using the word influence, but you know what I mean? Just like holding. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Holding space, you show up with an energy and you can extend that to others or you can buy into what's going on, you know, to the energy that's already there. [00:05:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have some questions. I have some questions. [00:05:52] Speaker A: Yeah, let's get into our questions. [00:05:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:55] Speaker A: Okay. So my first question for you is who or what brought you to yoga? [00:06:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting because I'll always be fondly thinking of Ron Frost. He's the first guest on Padmasana that has recently launched, and he's the individual who introduced me to meditation many years ago. And of course, at the time I was aware of meditation, but not necessarily within the Context of Yoga, 8 Limbs of Yoga or otherwise. And there was this communal space in downtown Laramie, Wyoming, off of first street that I think has been since been repurposed to all sorts of things. But at the time, it was this communal space where people were doing yoga or other forms of spiritual practices and there was a communal meditation there. And much like the. My first yoga class within months or a year of this, I didn't like was it. Was it. It was an awful experience. I didn't understand. Thank you for saying that I did. I didn't understand it. [00:07:06] Speaker A: Yes. I just want to point out that there are so many people who have this experience where they come to a yoga class and they've heard all this stuff about yoga and how great it is or meditation and how great it is, and they like, their first initial reaction is, I don't like this stuff. I don't like it. [00:07:21] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, it's like, like I'm having to. You're asking me to sit down, be quiet. Which plenty of people in my life would tell you that that's hard for me anyway. Or at least, you know, especially at that time. But not only quite externally, but quite internally. [00:07:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:42] Speaker B: And then even just being like, I. There's all been all these, what I call Keanu Reeves whoa. Moments over the course of, like my, you know, spiritual exploration. And that one was like a, whoa, oh, my God, I don't like this. My mind is a noisy place. I don't want to experience that again. I would rather be distracted or busy. And then thinking that that was like a good use of like, my energy. Like, as long as I'm just doing stuff. [00:08:12] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, very human. [00:08:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And then the gift of meditation and then eventually coming to a yoga practice, you know, it's done so much in terms of, like shifting that to whatever it is today. And I think much like the first meditation experience, my first yoga experience was not good. You know, it was. And you know, male practitioners, at least in here in the west, shout out to you. You can probably relate to what I'm going to say. You're one or the one of a few or an only guy in a room full of women. And there are plenty of guys who might see that as an opportunity. [00:08:56] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:58] Speaker B: But there's a lot of guys who could be very self conscious. [00:09:03] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. [00:09:04] Speaker B: And for whatever reason, I was in the latter, at least, you know, at that time in my life. And you're just worried about how you look. You're worried about, even subconsciously, am I good enough? Like, am I good enough to just kind of hang with these naturally graceful, bendy, you know, people in the room, you know, and that's where the thought process is. Even though that was the beginning of the opportunity to start going deeper, at the time, I just wasn't ready to see it that way. I like Matt Damon and Good Will Hunting. I was just wanting to, like, argue with my quote, unquote, like, yoga experience therapist and run away, and I just wasn't ready. But I'm very grateful for the opportunities I had in Laramie to continue my yoga journey, because it's led me to now. [00:09:53] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I think that's so interesting and important to talk about how you felt in your first yoga class. I was in a yoga class and we had one guy who would come in all the time, and he said to the teacher one time that he was worried about coming off as a creep. And I thought, oh, that's something I've never worried about before. But she had a really good way to deal with that. She's like, put yourself in the front row. You can't be a creep in the front row. And it was like, oh, yeah. That also takes a lot of guts, though, because where do I like to gravitate towards the back corner when I go to a yoga studio. I'm like, put me in the back corner. Don't anyone look at me. Me. I'm just here to do my thing, you know? [00:10:36] Speaker B: But I imagine a lot of people are relating to what you just said, like, on either end of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:10:41] Speaker A: And I think a lot of men are relating to what you have said about, like, how do you start yoga? But I also know every studio I've been to, women are like, how do we get more men to come in and do this? You know, like, that's always been something that women teachers that I've been around have been like, how do we reach out to men and get. Help them get this benefit? That's off the, off the subject, but maybe another podcast. [00:11:07] Speaker B: Well, no, and it's, it's, it's, it's. It's related to so much both in terms of yoga's evolution here in the States and, you know, where it's come from. You know, yoga for many, for a good chunk of the time that it's been practiced was almost the exclusive practice or majority practice by men. And both, you know, my wife and, you know, my own reflections, I'm really trying to remind myself that All I'm doing is kind of living this evolutionary blip of yoga's, you know, evolution. So although some people might be complaining about like, oh, it's just, especially in the west, it's dominated by women, like at yoga studios or whatever. Like, well, that's really just like an energetic continuum of like where it's come from as things work towards like balance. And I don't know if you have a thought on whether I've always appreciated the vibe when there's been like a decent balance of male, female or otherwise identities, like in like a yoga studio space, you know? [00:12:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think it's great to have a balance of that, those different masculine and feminine energies, you know, because I think, I mean, there's a lot we could talk about on this in. [00:12:15] Speaker B: Terms of like, just save it for another show. [00:12:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. This could get really big. But I do who appreciate when men come to class. It's nice to feel like they're there for themselves, you know, and like, there's such a vibe around, like, treat yourself, you know, around can be. There can be a vibe like that around yoga studios. And I just, I just love it when men come to class. And currently in my classes I have a pretty good mix of, of men and women and it's really great to, to have that energy there. It feels more rounded and whole. [00:12:49] Speaker B: I like rounded and whole. Like normally I love the word balance, but I really like your usage of rounded and whole here. [00:12:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it feels whole. And it feels so good to have both men and women in class and like to teach to everyone and to see everyone having their experience in their practice as a teacher. Right. Cause you're watching to make sure everyone's kind of safe and doing their thing and it just feels, yeah, it feels whole. It feels like the way we should be instead of. I mean, we have a lot of narratives in our society about men versus women. And it's like, how about both and how about all of us, you know, And I love that in my classes. And what I love too is that the men who are coming to my classes are not coming in in a place of competition, they're just coming in as themselves. And that is really beautiful to me. [00:13:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm hoping that's a sign of, you know, people just becoming a little bit more self aware, a little more aware of their ego and maybe setting it aside and along with just more and more people becoming aware of the benefits of yoga. [00:13:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Showing up as themselves, like every single human being showing up as yourself. That's what's needed now. We're getting big. [00:14:02] Speaker B: Okay, back to questions, back to questions. [00:14:06] Speaker A: What experiences, people, philosophies, modalities. Like what are the things that keep bringing you back into a relationship with yoga? Because it's easy to drop out, right? It's easy to be like, ah, not today. [00:14:22] Speaker B: Well, and we've seen that, I think, play out in our own, you know, we've each been teaching for, you know, over a decade, you know, to varying degrees. And I've been on the ownership side of a studio. I've also shifted in terms of like, interests. You know, I think like a lot of people here in the States, it's that fitness, you know, structure, style, especially in heated space that can draw so many people in because you feel great after it, you know, because you got those happy chemicals in the brain. [00:14:54] Speaker A: Hope molecules. [00:14:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Hope molecules. You've been able to sweat out any toxins if you were partying the previous day, if you were a partier. Definitely saw that in some spaces, you know, like the, the smell of alcohol and people's sweat in a Bikram class, you know, or a hot class. And I just, But I am also. And you know, and you're doing this in front of a wide wall of mirrors, you know, it's like, it's, it's, it's fitness spa. Right? And that's where I entered. That was my entry into the yoga river is like that, that, that tributary and along with like music, nice mixes from like a, a teacher. And I'm not taking any of this away from anyone or any place where this still continues. But I'm just glad that I had the opportunity to be introduced to more traditional forms of yoga because that's when I really got bit. That's when the yoga bug really bit me, is when a teacher at the studio I used to call and wanted to bring an Ashtanga type class to the studio. Shout out. Reid and his approach to teaching was just such a contrast to most of the other classes that I had been in up to that time. And of course he was kind enough to introduce me to places to practice in Boulder, Colorado, including the yoga workshop, which then at the time was owned by Richard Freeman and Mary Taylor. And I had a chance to meet them and get to know them a little bit. [00:16:25] Speaker A: Wow. [00:16:26] Speaker B: And then that was just an accelerator, I think, towards me moving in that direction. And that journey has just continued and manifested in a variety of different ways. And I've never circled back to that fitness model, although I've been and practiced at similar places if I've been traveling to a different city and that's what was available. So that's a long winded way of answering your question, but maybe I touched on it. [00:16:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that was a good answer. That's cool that you got to meet Richard and Mary. [00:17:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I still have, you know, it's this kind of feels a little bit like ego stroking. But you know, I still have a photo of me with each of them like by my side, like framed. Because even though I wouldn't say that I'm by any means really close with them, I've had enough sharing of energy with them to have what I believe is a genuine sense that they're very evolved souls who have dedicated a life's work to helping raise the level of consciousness in the species. And what an amazing endeavor. And I think at the end of the day, I think any teacher who continues to do it these days, that has to be consciously or unconsciously a big thing that's driving them. [00:17:46] Speaker A: And there is a gradation of experience from the yoga fitness model, as you said, to the, to the more quiet Ashtanga. I say Ashtanga based, but what I really mean is contemplative based. Ashtanga is pretty rigid in how it presents itself, which is totally fine. But what I mean is like there's a lack of music. There's emphasis is more on like inner work. Right. Of like being present with the breath, with the sensations through the body. Which music. And like a really fast vinyasa flow can take you away from that. [00:18:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Or it could help depending on the right circumstances. [00:18:26] Speaker A: It can help if you're, if you're, if your brain is really loud. I remember when I first started practicing without music and how different that experience is. And it's not different in a bad or good way. Right. Not different in a this is level up or level down way. It's just different. It's just different. It's a different experience of the self that can be just as revealing as your very first yoga class where you feel blissed out at the end. And it, and it is kind of. I want to use the word addicting, but I don't think that's the right word. It's compelling and can keep you returning. So it's cool. That's. Yeah, yeah. So we're going to get into some more deep questions here. What does yoga mean to you personally or intellectually? And then what does your yoga practice mean to you or for you? What does it do for you as a human living in a really chaotic world right now. [00:19:33] Speaker B: Yeah, let's dive. I do say, people have heard me say in classes or in discussions, is that I have come to think that yoga is the best thing our species has created. And I don't see myself shifting away from that for the rest of my life. That is not to say that it is a magical pill or elixir for all things that doesn't exist, in my view. But I do think that yoga and how it's evolved and the role it can play for people at an individual level, on a community level, whether that's a studio, whether that's a temple community, whether that's a town, city, you know, it's related to the Zen Buddhist concept of like, you know, peace comes from within and projects up and out, and the peace is always there. But we've been, you know, if you're listening to this, you've been born into a world that has become progressively noisier, more susceptible to distraction. And you and I were fortunate to have an analog childhood and upbringing pre Internet. [00:20:59] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, were. [00:21:01] Speaker B: That we were. That we can recall. And there's pros and cons to the. The Internet. The Internet has been amazing. This would not. What we're doing right now would not be possible if it wasn't for the Internet. But the Internet is also a part of a variety of things that if I wanted to assign a negative label to it, I could. I'm not going to do that. That's another show. So what does it mean in a chaotic world? It's not the silver bullet, but it's worth trying. It's worth experimenting with and seeing what it does for you, especially these days in these modern times. [00:21:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that answer. It's not a silver bullet, but there's benefit every time you come to the mat. Every time. [00:21:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it's that practice component. Right. Practice doesn't just mean, you know, do it here, do it there, do it there. It's like practice is like analogy with science. Like, keep testing, keep testing, keep testing, keep verifying, keep verifying, keep verifying. If you do that, lots of interesting things start to happen. Lots of interesting things start to manifest both internally and even around you. [00:22:14] Speaker A: I love that answer because the way I grew up, I grew up in a really black and white thinking environment. So it's like it's this or it's that. There is nothing in between. And that's a very judgmental way to have your developmental processes be the water that your brain is formed in. When you're a kid. Right. And so I struggle as an adult with black and white thinking. Not so much now. I think I'm really good at seeing those parts of myself that get into that black and white thinking. But I love this. Keep testing, keep verifying. Because I think when I first came to yoga, I was still in that black and white mindset of it's either this or nothing. And now as I move through the world, it's like, I don't want to go to my mat, but I know if I do, I'm always going to feel better afterwards. I struggle with that resistance. But at the end, the keep verifying, it's like verified feel way better. [00:23:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Or at least getting from negative to neutral. [00:23:16] Speaker A: Right? Negative to neutral. [00:23:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Or sometimes maybe it's just a negative that's more palatable. Negative, that's a little bit more contextual. [00:23:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:25] Speaker B: Negative, that's a little bit more like, in its place. That's not. That's no longer, like, weighing you down or really, like, pulling at something, like, deep and internal, like. Like it is contextualized. It is understood, and it's no longer rec. It's recognized as something that's not you. [00:23:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, nothing is necessarily fixed, but it's yes. I love that answer. That's such a good answer. Because I think as humans, we're constantly looking for a fix to a problem or to ourselves or to whatever, or we're looking for some comfort or ease. And yeah, maybe you are just like a little less negative, a little more contextualized. It's not the silver bullet. It's not, you're perfect and you're done, but it is like, I can get through the next day. [00:24:17] Speaker B: Yeah, agreed. Yeah. [00:24:18] Speaker A: Love that answer. Okay. Oh, this is a good one. How has your yoga practice changed over time or evolved for you over time, personally? [00:24:27] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I think I've touched on it a little bit. But this is a cool question because, you know, I'm going to use the word aging. [00:24:35] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. Thank you. [00:24:37] Speaker B: Because it's a thing. And why is it a thing? [00:24:39] Speaker A: Because energy changes and we're organisms on a planet. [00:24:45] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And so I think what's funny, though, like, when I think about it, you know, you know, right now I'm practicing in a wonderful community at a Hindu temple, and I see young teenagers, like, practicing yoga regularly, and I can see how they are having some of the same fights that I had as an adult. So what am I getting at? 1. I wish I was practicing this when I was a kid or when I was a teenager. Like, I'm very grateful for my life, both the peaks and the valleys, but I really wish that this had been shared with me or I had exposed myself to this, you know, ancient practice and this, this system. And, you know, and in passing, I'll just mention if, you know, I'm talking with some of these young teenagers, you know, I'm like, stay, stay connected to this. You, you know, like, this can serve you so well if you just stay connected to it. Keep, like, keep practicing. And. Yeah. And so thinking about how my own practice has evolved, as I said, beginning fitness, I think I've got active energy in me for whatever reasons. So I think that also lent itself to an affinity for more challenging asana, more challenging styles of yoga. But as I've gotten into my 40s now, I've no, I begin to notice an energetic shift where even though that's still there, it's beginning to balance with more restorative and an appreciation for more restorative practices, compassion, if I'm ever taking a break from a phys, a vigorous practice day. And then maybe that just becomes a limited number of asanas, or maybe that becomes more of a mindful restorative approach. And, you know, I think this is probably just an organic process that manifests in people's lives. Right. Because physical yoga, like hatha yoga, has only been around for a fraction of the time, really, compared to other aspects of yoga. And as my practice has shifted into meditation and these more deeper limbs of yoga. And if you've experienced something like samadhi, you know, if you're a Buddhist, you think of this, you know, a similar state like nirvana or whatever glimpse, these enlightenment glimpses, that becomes the real allure of the practice, at least. At least for me. And the physical aspect of the practice is there because, you know, it helps the body, it helps the mind, but it's that spirit layer that I think is really at the center of my personal practice right now. [00:27:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks for eliminating what samadhi is. Yeah. Because that's a term that maybe some of our listeners don't know, but. Yeah. [00:27:52] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:27:52] Speaker A: Well, I mean, you know, very much like Nirvana. [00:27:54] Speaker B: Read up on the eight limbs of yoga. You know, what's interesting is that culturally speaking, like I've learned, like in India, samadhi can be seen as, you know, death or this passage of death, you know, and that can be interpreted in different ways. You can think of what Obi Wan and Yoda do, like in Star wars, like that whole Force ghosting thing. Yeah, Samadhi. Right. But, like, it's. But it's essentially just this. It can also be thought of as, like, death of ego or release of ego, so that you realize that you are connected to everything everywhere, all at once, and that. That's it. Everything outside of everything outside of that is just noise. [00:28:37] Speaker A: And it is hard to be in a human meat suit and. And also hold that idea that, like, you are everything everywhere, all at once. That'. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Human meat suit that needs to be branded and put on merchandise asap. [00:28:52] Speaker A: The meat suit. I'm telling you, that's the meat suit. [00:28:57] Speaker B: Good question, Gina. Thank you. [00:28:58] Speaker A: Yeah, this kind of goes hand in hand. This next question does you kind of touched a little bit on some of this, but I'll still go into this question. Do you have luls in your practice, like, parts in your, you know, parts in your life where you're like, yoga is not. Like, I'm not feeling it, and if so, how do you overcome them? And then this kind of goes hand in hand with that. But, like, what helps you stay engaged in your practice and what does that look like for you? [00:29:28] Speaker B: You know, I think someone who is admittedly organized, and I don't say that necessarily as a bragging point, it just. It seems like just organization, structure is something that, like, resonates with me. [00:29:39] Speaker A: Mm. [00:29:41] Speaker B: You know, I've had to balance this. Is this supporting me, or is this something that I need, you know, like, aspect of my practice? And so I think I've allowed myself to not be as methodically beholden to rigid structure, rigid scheduling for my own, like, practice and take a little bit more time off or allow myself to explore, you know, something different. And also, sometimes, Gina, like, life will sometimes nudge you, you know, like your tribute. You're where you are in the river. You're like, oh, yeah, I kind of like the way this is flowing. And something like, oh, drop or big boulder or rock is going to change the trajectory of this river and send you in a different direction. Like a lot of people, I think we all went through varying levels of challenges during the pandemic years. And that time, without getting into the details, presented me with opportunities to be honest about the fact of how deep I was actually going in my yoga practice, or if I had gotten essentially to a point where I was content just kind of wherever I was and shifting into these expirations of, you know, the deeper limbs of yoga, you know, Dharana, Dhyana meditation, Samadhi, that has really been an anchor for whoever I am whatever I'm trying to do, either for myself or anyone in my life. And I don't know if that answers your question, but. [00:31:25] Speaker A: No, it does. It's like, yeah, you use the word anchor. It's like these practices pull you back when, you know, they pull you back when you need them. And I think, you know, there's a really interesting phenomenon out there of people being like yoga every damn day. And I'm like, that's not realistic. As a human being in a chaotic world who's got all of the pressures of a householder, meaning you're married, you might have kids, you've got bills, you've got vehicles that need maintained, you got a job you gotta get to, you know, you got family members you're caregiving for or whatever. I look at some of the practitioners who are like, yoga every damn day and I'm like, dang, how you do that? How do you do that? You know, so this is always a question I'm kind of interested in. [00:32:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess it could be like a crossfit mentality and maybe that gets problematic. Or it could be like a healthy mentality if it's just like a mindset, you know what I mean? Like, how am I adopting yoga not just in mat time but off mat time? Because that's really what it's supposed to be. You know, there was a time, people, ladies, ladies and gentlemen and every like, and everyone where yoga was not practiced on, you know, like artificially produced, like mats that rolled up. [00:32:36] Speaker A: Yeah, it was just on the ground or on the floor or it was. [00:32:38] Speaker B: On the ground or it was on a rug, it was on an animal skin. Shocking. Like, like in India, you know, what have you, like all sorts of, all sorts of things. And so this idea that yoga was ever or even is just something spent on a mat is a relatively new concept. [00:32:59] Speaker A: And maybe the idea of yoga just as movements is a relatively new concept as well. Because, like, I mean, in some of, in my teacher trainings, in the teacher trainings that I've been to, we always talk about take your yoga off the mat, which can also sound very cliched and kind of sugarcoated. But it's like, how do you, how do you take the benefits and the gifts of yoga and like extend them throughout the rest of your life, which are calmness, maybe curiosity, stability, open mindedness, peacefulness. Right. Like some of these really great qualities that yoga can, the physical practice can give us in our bodies and in our emotional mental state and spiritual state. But how do we, I Mean, am I a good yogi if I go to a yoga class and then I blow up in my coworker's face over something stupid? Right? [00:33:49] Speaker B: Or a loved one, Right. You know, like here's, here's me eating humble pie on the first episode of Yoga Scutcheon is. I'm still learning to be calm and present in moments of discord. Whether that manifests like in an acutely stressful situation or like, or otherwise. Like, I'm pretty sure when I'm behind the wheel of a car there's, there's not going to be much like anger there at this point in time. But when I'm frustrated, usually with some of the people I care the most about or if I think that they've done or said something, boy, that ego is a little tricky. And sometimes it's kind of like that little like, what's the best geeky analogy? Like dark side of the force or golemy energy reaching, you know, out and hissing, you know, like it'll do that sometimes. And I think what I'm still learning to do and all it takes is just probably just like one mindful breath to just be like, okay, that's what that was. Let it pass and don't react. [00:34:55] Speaker A: And also don't judge yourself for being gollumy. Right? Like I got a good golem inside of me. I tell you what, where's my. [00:35:01] Speaker B: Allow yourself to be human. Allow yourself to be human. [00:35:04] Speaker A: Yeah, allow yourself to be human. And I think yoga also can give us that the gifts of forgiveness. And you know, like, oh yeah, not only. I mean like we always think of forgiveness as being like something that we do for other people. And it's like, boy, I'll tell you who needs the most forgiveness in my life is me. You know, like I'm 100% willing to forgive other people, but like, will I hold myself accountable for the rest of eternity for something small? And you know, I perceive it as being significant but like when I talk to whoever about whatever, it's like, oh yeah, I've forgotten about that. So. Yeah, with ourselves too. [00:35:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Just learning about like the concept of self love related to what you're saying, right? Like just what, Like I remember the first time I heard that, you know, and then seeing how that applies to certain people where it's just like, well that's actually made them more selfish and like, and like more self absorbed rather than aware. But when it's, when that's really understood, you know, self awareness and the practice of self love, like related to what you're saying, like, stop. Don't let the ego beat you up. The ego can be something that fuels you towards accomplishing great things. The mind can be something that fuels you to accomplish great things, but can also be like a total, like, bully. A total bully, Yes. [00:36:31] Speaker A: I think that I would say probably the first, like five years of my yoga practice, I really just used it as a tool to beat myself up. [00:36:41] Speaker B: Like, probably a lot of people. For sure. [00:36:42] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I did and I didn't even know I was doing. Took a lot of practice to get to a place where I was like, I'm actually kind of harming myself with this. And why am I doing that? Anyways, that's a. That's a topic for another time. But this, this is a good segue into my next question, which in your yoga bio on your website, you say that you believe yoga's the best tool for evolution. And so I wanted to ask you, what do you think is going on on a physical, mental, emotional, spiritual level that. That yoga is this tool of evolution? That's a deep one. Sorry. It's a big one. [00:37:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm just going to let that sit, but this is good stuff. Let me chew on this for a second. So whatever one's spiritual or religious views are, Yoga's given me this vantage point for wherever I am on what may or may not be my spiritual summit, that we all come from the same source and we return to the same source. It's just a question of time, which really doesn't even exist within the context of how we think of time. Past, present, future. There is just a series of now moments. And then, of course, this has been discussed much better than I could. You know, if you've read, you know, the Power of Now, Eckhart Tolle, and it's been, you know, referred to in many other books, movies, tv, various forms of media. But that's essentially what it is, right? Like, everything is energy everywhere, all at once. And spirituality is essentially like connecting to realizing that truth and connecting to it and making that inform your behavior. You know, just because when you reside in the present moment, even though this might be a temporary thing, especially for us in meat suits, you know, becomes something that makes you more evolved, it makes you kinder, it makes you more calm. I'm not saying, like, again, not a silver bullet. This is not like a magical pill thing that where, like, you take it, you do it, and then everything everywhere is going to be sunshine and rainbows, you know, and that's how Sometimes this can be packaged and sold in a capitalistic society. For sure. [00:39:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:39:13] Speaker B: But. Yeah, but. But the practice, you know, the awareness of that is what it's all about, you know? And, yeah, I could keep going on and on and on, but thanks for the opportunity to have another internal Keanu Reeves Wow. Whoa. Moment. [00:39:30] Speaker A: Yeah. As you were talking, I could see just like an image in my mind of all of us little humans on the planet, and then these little strings of light just shooting out into the universe that are just connecting back to these energy sources that we maybe don't know very much about. Right. Even scientifically. And then I started thinking about quantum physics, too, and I was like, yeah, it's really big. It's really big. But also at the same time, it's in the body. It's in the meat suit. Yes. [00:40:05] Speaker B: At least in this lifetime. [00:40:06] Speaker A: Yeah, at least in this lifetime. Yeah. I was listening to an evolutionary podcast where they were talking about how at the core of our brain is the reptilian part. Right. And that, like, so we evolved from this thing to. And then we have this prefrontal cortex, which is where all the magic is happening in the brain. And of course, I'm not an expert in any of this. Just very curious. So it's almost like the meat suit is the connection, and we're, like, doing the things in the meat suit to bring that energy here or something. [00:40:37] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Balancing with the medulla oblongata. [00:40:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So did you have any other questions or. [00:40:46] Speaker A: Yeah, let's see. I've got one last question. Kind of. [00:40:48] Speaker B: Good. You came prepared. [00:40:50] Speaker A: It goes off of this. Do you think there are other ways to evolve the human consciousness, or do you think that yoga really is the best, you know, most available tool for human beings? [00:41:03] Speaker B: Well, there's. There's different paths to the spiritual summit. Right. And different donkeys you could hop on and get there. And so even though yoga, I think, has been the donkey that I've had the most explanation, you know, pleasant experience riding up to the summit, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the same for other people. And I think that it can be that for a lot of people to rewind back to the beginning, I did not like my first yoga class, my first yoga experience, my first meditation experience. I didn't take another yoga class for two years. You know, that's probably because, like, the donkey, the first time I hopped on the donkey, I wasn't being kind to it. You know, I wasn't really being aware of it. I was just in my mind essentially. Oh, my God, is this donkey gonna kick me off? This donkey kind of stinks, you know, like it needs to brush its. Needs to brush its teeth. You know, why am I even on a donkey in any way? You know, why don't I just take an easier form, you know, an easier mode of transportation to where I'm trying to go. And we've learned, you know, as whether it's psychedelics, you know, just transcendental meditation, you know, all these other things that have been very. In a focused manner, trying to get people into a certain state of being. Our mind, there's all this relationship happening here, like the studies about, you know, when someone is on a psychedelic and the studies of someone who is in a deep meditative state, along with the studies of, you know, brain maps of the human brain for long term practitioners. This changes you at an energetic level. And I think for me personally, you know, yoga just seems like the more holistic way to do that. And if there are other ways to the spiritual summit that people. That get people there in a very authentic way that helps them be a better human being, I'm all for it. [00:43:11] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, great answer. [00:43:15] Speaker B: All right, well, now I'm gonna take my interviewee hat off and put my interviewer hat on. Gina, much like you were asking earlier, I think me and other listeners would like to hear about how you discovered yoga or how you came to yoga. Can you share that with us? [00:43:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I started out doing videos because this was in the 90s and there really weren't yoga. There weren't yoga studios in Wyoming, really. So I started doing videos that I got at the library and people were loaning me. And then I had. In the early 2000s, mid 2000s, I had. I took a class at a college for my, you know, for my degree in yoga. And so it was like a six. It was like a semester of yoga. And that was good. I didn't. Super. It was kind of like neither here nor there. It was like, yeah, I like yoga, you know, like, yo, I like this. And then when I went to a different university in Laramie and I went to a studio there and I took classes. Whoa. Yoga kind of broke me open. Really good. Teacher Emily Brown just, yeah, kind of broke. [00:44:21] Speaker B: Yeah, Emily was great. [00:44:23] Speaker A: Emily. Man, that. [00:44:25] Speaker B: It is great. Emily, if you hear this. Thank you. [00:44:29] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you so much. Changed our lives. Yeah, really changed my life. After I got out of college, I was going through some tough depression and my friend dragged me to yoga again. I kind of Had a, you know, we did in college. We did yoga together often at Blossom Yoga. And then we graduated and went into the professional world. And then, yeah, deep dark depression didn't so much surface as come crashing down on my life. And yeah, I was really struggling to stay alive. And so my friend took me back to yoga and it was like, okay, for this one hour in class, I am okay. And so I started going every day. And then that led to teacher training. Never intended to be a yoga teacher, but my favorite class was. [00:45:17] Speaker B: Funny how that works, right? [00:45:19] Speaker A: My favorite class was going to be canceled and at the local yoga studio where I practiced and the owner was like, well, you could just teach it or it's going away. So I started teaching it and. And I, you know, shout out to Sylvia Carle, like she saw something in me that I didn't know was there or believe, believed could be there as a teacher. And yeah, I love teaching yoga. [00:45:44] Speaker B: Well, that's just the, you know, my view of that now, it wouldn't have been back then, but that's just the universe doing what it does, Gina. You know what I mean? [00:45:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:51] Speaker B: You know, energy, energy, touching energy and, you know, so, yeah, thanks for sharing that. So you had mentioned teacher training. What shifted inside of you when you went through your teacher training experience, do you think? [00:46:04] Speaker A: Ooh, yeah, this is going to be an interesting answer. I have had depression my whole life. It's been rough. And that was my big struggle in teacher training. And I remember we were reading Deborah Adele's. I think that's how you say her last name. It could be Adele. Deborah Adele's book. What's the title of that book? It's about the Yamas. It's called Yamas and Niyamas. There we go. [00:46:31] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, the Amas and Niyamas. I'm looking at the spine right now on my bookshelf. [00:46:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I had a love hate relationship with that book. [00:46:39] Speaker B: Oh, sure. Yeah. [00:46:40] Speaker A: I felt like a lot of it was pretty sugar coated and it was pretty like love and light, everybody. And there was one chapter where she's telling the famous Navajo story, which this story also pisses me off as an anthropologist. I don't like it. But, you know, they talk about the Navajo grandpa telling his grandson about the two wolves who are inside your heart. And there's the. Or sometimes it's two wolves. Sometimes it's a wolf and a sheep. And it's like, who wins in the battle for your heart? Is it the wolf or the sheep? Or is it the white wolf or the Black wolf or whatever. I think in her version, it's a wolf and a sheep. And it basically, the basic. I just think this story is so reductive, but this is what changed me on my yoga path. [00:47:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:22] Speaker A: You know, the basic reductiveness of this story is feed the sheep, not the wolf. And I remember just raising my hand and saying, like, well, what if you just have a pack of wolves in your heart? What if there are no sheep? What if it's just a wolf pack? And this is what you are dealing with, and you are. And this is what it is. Like, this is being human. It's not necessarily good or bad. And I think if there was a question, what radicalized you as a yoga teacher? Which I don't think I'm a radical. And I will say that's what radicalized me as a yoga teacher, was that, like, I don't want to be a teacher who's like, just do this pose and everything will be okay. I want to recognize that maybe you do have a wolf pack in your heart like me. Do you have a herd of sheep? Yeah. That's okay, too. [00:48:13] Speaker B: And, Gina, again, you know, I'd already given you credit, like, for, you know, what my thoughts are in the. You know, when we first met. And, like, that was so refreshing. So refreshing, because so much of my experience being around other teachers and everything, and to a certain degree, it maybe exists to this day, where everyone just portrays themselves just because they're selling something. Right. [00:48:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:35] Speaker B: Is I am an enlightened being. Everything is. Everything is gravy. And, like, I am this graceful, brilliant, like, joyful. You know, all this stuff can be very valid and true. Don't get me wrong. [00:48:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:50] Speaker B: I'm just saying that there was this. This packaged version of it where it seemed like everyone had this Persona. And then Gina, you know, comes into my life, and I'm like, here is someone who is unafraid to be vulnerable, to show her true, like, whatever it. [00:49:11] Speaker A: Is, a wild pack of wolves raving and mad. [00:49:15] Speaker B: And you weren't the other one I encountered more and more. And, like, that's the truth. Like that. And that's what I think helped me find that voice for my own teaching, is to allow that that can only come from awareness and introspection. So I'd be curious to know, like, on some level, did you. Did you think this was coming up, like, organically? Had you thought about this? Or, like, what do you think, like, informed this approach to your teaching? [00:49:41] Speaker A: That experience really kind of broke me down. I remember Feeling in no shade to my fellow teachers, but. Or teacher trainers at that time. But I remember feeling very on the outside and feeling like I. It might. It was a different weekend, but we were reading the Bhagavad Gita and there's this part where Arjuna is. Or Arjuna. I struggle with saying things properly, I'm sure. So, you know, please forgive me, world, if I don't say Arjuna's name right. Is in the chariot with Krishna, and he says, let me see your true form. And so Krishna shows him his true expansive form, right? And it's like 10,000 eyes and 10,000 mouths and 10,000. And Krishna is so big and terrifying that finally Arjuna collapses on the floor of the chariot and says, no, return to your mortal state. I can't look at this anymore. That weekend also kind of radicalized me in a way. I guess I shouldn't use the word radicalized, but it broke me open in a way that was like, life is terrifying. And being a human with a spirit and a sense of who I am is also terrifying to me because I'm not love and light. I'm not all love and light. I'm like a pack of wolves that's starving and howling and raw and running. And I'm also this big. I'm the bigness of Krishna, as is everyone. So terrifying. My own essence is terrifying to me in some ways because also I live in a meat suit where I have to go to work and be normal and say hi to people and they want to know how I am and I have to say, fine. When really what I want to say is like, how is everyone not going crazy right now and at all times? Because we are these big spiritual essences, but we're also like a body that can die and be hurt. And yeah, I've always felt a bit of a. A bit of darkness, I guess, just resides inside me. That is, I feel like everyone wants it to be gone or like our society is like, banish the darkness, don't be the darkness. But I feel like that darkness is valid and it's okay. And it's okay to be a wolf pack. And it's okay to understand that you are as complex and big as the eternal Krishna, but you are also a little meat suit walking around on the planet doing stuff. I've always been like this. And it's been hard. It's been a hard journey to. To embody this. [00:52:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:23] Speaker A: And I think yoga helps with that. But also there's a way that yoga can be packaged and sold that, like, can deny you your basic bigness. It can deny you your depth, your light and your dark. Like, we all have it. We all have our light and our dark. And our dark isn't something to be thrown aside or to be judged or called negative or seen as some evil thing. Like, it's part of who we are. It's okay to feel grief and sadness and darkness in this world. There is that present. And I never want to be the person who's like, all the things you are are not welcome. But I think that's overwhelming for people, too, when you see they're struggling and you're like, hey, I give you permission to do that. And then they literally fall apart because no one's ever said that to them before. And they don't have any experience holding space for a wolf pack. [00:53:20] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really. I think there's some. A lot of profound stuff there, Gina, because we can think of people trying to put on a good face when it comes to what does it look like to be a spiritual aspirant or what does it look like to be a regular yoga practitioner? And, you know, the human experience is having those two wolves, you know, like, in inside of you. Right. And I guess the best thing that we can do is, you know, thinking of, like, a yin yang, you know, like in our mind's eye and the listener's eyes, like, that black wolf is always going to be there. But, you know, Star wars analogy, too. Like, all you can essentially do over time, through practice, like, from a state of awareness, is make the. The white wolf a little bit bigger, a little bit more, you know, in control of, like, turning the wheel. And also love that black wolf, because the black wolf is a part of the white wolf. And without the black wolf, it isn't in balance and it doesn't continue to turn. Right. And so, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a whole other topic. And I don't think you even have. [00:54:32] Speaker A: To make the white wolf bigger. I think the real thing is, is just to accept. Right. It's like, accept that you may be a person with a wolf pack inside of you. And that doesn't mean that you're bad. Right. It's like, if you feel an edge of darkness in this world in your spirit, that's okay. You're gonna feel light too, because it's all there. Every single one of us has this. It's just we're much more comfortable as a society accepting the light. And I think for anyone who's interested more in these Kind of concepts you could read like women who run with wolves or anything that's like, folkloric in nature, where it talks about the light and darkness of the human spirit. I mean, that's what the hero's journey is about, is like, here comes darkness. [00:55:23] Speaker B: Navigating all of that. [00:55:24] Speaker A: Navigating it, right? And for me, yoga was a place. Yoga teacher training in particular, was a place where I had to navigate that and had to decide how I wanted to be as a teacher. Did I want my students to feel love and light only, which I feel like is repressive? Or do I want my students to know that whatever they're showing up with to class is freaking welcome? Bring your wolves. They're welcome here. And bring your sheep, too, and bring whatever else. Maybe you got a giraffe in your heart. I don't know. But I don't. [00:55:59] Speaker B: With a long tongue, right? [00:56:01] Speaker A: I mean, we're all. [00:56:02] Speaker B: Long black tongue. A long black tongue. [00:56:05] Speaker A: And whatever we're showing up with is what we're showing up with. And you can't. You can't excise that or cut it out. And I will say I still have a wolf pack in my heart, but I'm in more harmony with that wolf pack now than I was back then. Back then, I felt like I had to hide it or get rid of it or mitigate it or fix it or really just annihilate it. And now there's not a moment in this world that I would ever think those things now. Because now the wolf pack is my strength, right? But I will say it was hard going through that. It was hard to speak up in a place that's, quote unquote, where we bring the light through, you know, the. The love and light world. It is hard to speak up in that world and say, well, what if you're a warrior? What if you're a wolf pack? What if you're a person who's on a spiritual quest that is a fight, or on a quest in your life that is a fight? It doesn't even have to be spiritual. It could just be survival, you know? And what I did learn was that I was in survival mode at that time and probably a little bit still am. But I'm learning how to accept what is better and work with what is instead of trying to mold myself into the quote, unquote, perfect yogi. There's no such thing as the perfect yogi. [00:57:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, sorry. [00:57:37] Speaker A: We went way off, but. [00:57:39] Speaker B: No, no, no, no, no. I mean, we always circle back and there's Nothing wrong with meandering, right? Or. Because as long as it goes to some interesting places. But no, I had a couple questions, you know, I was thinking about. So part one of the question is, why do you continue to teach yoga after 12 years of practice and teaching? Because as you touched on earlier, plenty of people drop out. You know, they don't stick with it. So I'm curious, and I imagine listeners would like to know, you know, what's keeping you in it. And maybe along that line, have there any been any writings or teachings that have inspired you along your journey being a teacher? [00:58:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Why do I keep teaching? I did take a break through the pandemic. I taught until, I think, 2021, online for a while, and then the yoga studio in our town closed because of the pandemic. And so I took a break. My mom got sick and got cancer and died, and I took a break through that because I just knew I couldn't hold space. I taught through. My husband had gotten cancer as well, and he survived and is in. He's doing well now, but he had. I taught through his experience. You know, I took a break for five months after for his treatment and a couple months after we got back, but then I went back to teaching. And it was hard. Oh, my God, it was hard to teach from that place. You're so raw and vulnerable. I'd cry. I would cry while everyone was in Shavasana. I would just have silent tears dripping down my face as I taught, because I was so grateful to be teaching. But I also had so much, like, emotional experience in my heart from being a caregiver to someone that I thought I was not gonna. I thought I was gonna lose, you know? [00:59:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:59:29] Speaker A: So I came back to teaching after my mom passed. And really how I think about my teaching right now is just like, a safe place to be. Like, I just want students to have a safe place once a week to come to lay their burdens down, to step into the softness of their own self, to fall into their yoga practice, whatever that looks like for them. I'm not trying to preach to them about anything. I'm not trying to have a lesson about anything. I'm not trying to, like, tell anyone how to live their life. I really want people to have a place to soften right now. Right now is a real tough time for globally. It's hard. We're all going through everything. We don't need to touch on those things, but we know we're all going through it. And the consistent theme in my Classes right now. And my students, if they ever listen to this, are like, yep, she says the word soft like a million times. But it is like, how can you be more soft? How can you be more soft with yourself? How can you be more soft in your body? How can you be more soft in the life that you live? And if you can lay that down for this hour and a half, Lay down all your burdens, all your thoughts, all your cares for this hour and a half. And let yourself be in your meat suit and give your meat suit some rest. Because that thing is doing a lot of work. Right. Let this body lay down and rest. That is my motivation right now as a teacher. Yeah. To circle back to that question about what have I read lately? A couple years ago I read Susanna Barkataki. I hope I'm saying her name right. Her book. Oh, what is. What is the title of that? I just was looking at it the other day. This is. This is getting into your 40s. You just start to lose. She has this book. Is it called the Roots of Yoga or Embracing the Roots of Yoga, something like that. I could probably look it up. I read that book and it really knocked me off my center as a yoga teacher, I will say, because a lot of it is about colonialism and how cultural appropriation. I'm also an anthropologist in my professional life, and I'm an archaeologist specifically. And so, like, there are questions of, like, how do we approach cultures that are not ours, that we are not born into, or we don't necessarily have had anything, would have had anything to do with, you know, pre colonialism. And then there's also a lot of things that I've just. In that book in particular, they talk about these modes of selling yoga as a capitalist venture and yoga as consumeristic. And, you know, a lot of that bothers me. It bothers me. And so I feel like right now I am. And this is hard to say on here. Cause I have not talked. I've talked to like two people about this. You might be the second person I've talked to. But, like, I feel like I am renegotiating who I am as a yoga teacher right now. [01:02:34] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. Yeah. [01:02:36] Speaker A: And that's hard because I love yoga. And it has had. It has given me a lot. The benefits of my practice have been. Been very helpful for me. And it's been a part of my life in a way that feels so genuine. So it's hard to have this cultural reckoning with the consumerism and the capitalism and the love and light BS of yoga. And then reading Susanna Barkataki's book, it just kind of broke me open. It was like, God, who do I think I am to be teaching this? And yet I live in a small community of 7,000 people who need yoga. And so, yeah, it's like walking this very thin line of, like, what is cultural appropriation? Am I allowed to teach yoga anymore? But also, these folks need a place to restore and rest, and yoga gives us that, you know, it's a real fine line. And I don't necessarily know what the answers are. I know what people want me to think on both sides of the line. And somehow I have to figure out how to walk that line and come back to my students and offer a place that's safe, a place that is nonjudgmental, a place where they can rest because that's what we need right now as humans. And I agree with what you said about yoga being a tool of evolution. And sometimes I wonder if we get too wrapped up in, like, everything has to be perfect, so the perfect gets in way, in the way of the good. In terms of yoga and how people access it and how we use it in our lives as now as a modern practice, I love its roots. I love the cultural aspects of yoga as a practice. And I think it's also been bastardized into this, like, other thing, you know, And I hope that people hear what I'm saying is that, like, it's so complex and I don't know what the answer is. [01:04:38] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. [01:04:40] Speaker A: As yoga teachers, that's something we have to ask ourselves all the time. Is like, what are my motivations? What are my intentions for teaching? My intentions are to offer my students safety, a place to rest, a place where they're not being judged, a place where they can lay all of that down and try to give themselves some reset so they can pick back up and do what they're going to do in the world. And that might be fighting for social justice, and it might be taking care of their children and creating the next generation of humans who will inherit this world. Both of those things are worthwhile and worthy endeavors. [01:05:19] Speaker B: No? Well said, Gina. Yeah, well, I've got the. I've got the heart floaties right now. Maybe other listeners do as well. So, interestingly, it kind of is a good segue. Like, how do you think yoga has contributed to you being a better person? Do you think you'd be the same person today without it? [01:05:40] Speaker A: I don't know if I'd be the same. I think there are Some people who are born seekers and, you know, spiritual hunter gatherers, for better or worse. Like, I think I've always been a person who has been curious and driven to, like, be a. Be a better me. So I don't know if I would be the same without yoga. This is just the path that this. That I've taken in this incarnation, this lifetime that is helping me to be more myself. I think it's hard to say better person, Right? Because, like, I don't think I'm reaching to be a better person. I think what I'm reaching for is, man, I wanna cry when I say this. I wanna know myself. I wanna know what the heck I'm doing here. I wanna know what am I supposed to be doing. [01:06:35] Speaker B: What is meaning? Maybe that's meaning. [01:06:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:38] Speaker B: Maybe meaning purpose. Or maybe it's clarity. Clarity. [01:06:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I don't like the words purp. Purpose. Because I think this is another thing with yoga that sometimes gets me a little, is that people are like, oh, find your purpose, and everything will just be a smooth path. And it's like, that's not reality. Reality is that we live in systems that are breaking down and we live in a violent world and we live in places where people clash with each other. I want to know my soul. That's what I want to know. I want to get as close to knowing myself as I can. And yoga has been that path for me in this lifetime. [01:07:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that can hopefully inspire some people for sure. Yeah. [01:07:27] Speaker A: I think there's a fear there, too. I will say trying to know your soul is scary. Right? It's terrifying because it's like, what if at the end of it, I realize that I am like a snarling, pernicious pack of wolves? Right? That's not true of any of us. [01:07:45] Speaker B: I will say we're evolved chimpanzees, Right? [01:07:49] Speaker A: But, like, there is fear there of, like. I don't want to get too close to that answer because what if I can't handle it? Even though I know on a, like, universal level that I can. But that's what I'm. That's what I think I'm here to do. And I think yoga is a good tool for that, but I think there's other tools for that too, you know? Like, yoga got me into therapy. It made me go to therapy because I hit this point in my practice where I was like, I had a breakdown. And I was like, oh, right. Yoga's not the silver bullet. It's not the magic pill. And it is not going to save me from myself. And really, by saying save me from myself, I'm saying save me from the cultural conditioning that I received, the familial conditioning, the intergenerational trauma that belonged to my ancestors that is now residing in me. But therapy is, I shouldn't say did. It is. I'm still doing it. But I hit this point in my practice where I was like, I need help. I need someone who is a yoga teacher is not trained to do this. A yoga teacher is not trained to help move someone through trauma. You know, as much as I love that we have practices in yoga to help people who have trauma were not therapists. And it made me realize I needed to go to therapy. And it's been such a blessing and boy, if I could give like, you, like earlier in our interview, you said if you could tell those teenagers who are practicing, practicing yoga to like, stick with it. If I could go back and tell my, my younger self anything, it would be go to therapy when you're 20. Start now. Because yeah, you. [01:09:35] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I guess just to like, pick up on this thought thread, if you don't mind is like, because hearing your words, like, in my mind, the image that's being created is. Yoga is a system that can help peel the layers to reveal like, what's, what's true, like what's actually within you. And maybe that's what if, if, if, if that isn't enough for certain people for, for whatever reason, like, that can also be like an excellent tool to then, if you start therapy or enter therapy, what you're bringing to therapy is a more authentic version, a more aware version of yourself. For someone to hold up a mirror and for you to get that valuable perspective, that additional insight. And so that's where the. Sometimes you gotta combine two tools in order to meet like a certain, like, objective or to make a certain thing. And so I think I appreciate the analogy for sure. Do you have any? Yeah, go ahead. [01:10:28] Speaker A: Well, we have this idea of somatics right now. Like, somatic therapy is like really banging right now, I guess, or super popular. But that's what yoga is, the actual physical practice of yoga. It will get you into your layers. It will, it will peel back physically. Like, you're like, oh, I have this ache all the time in this part of my body. And you do enough yoga and you get in there and you're like, right, like. But that's also a limiting belief that I'm carrying. Or it's a programmed in thought process that I've got from my parents that, like, I'm carrying their generational trauma or whatever, and like, or it might be a trauma that you accrued in your life. What yoga did was it, like, exercised my demons, for lack of a better term, through my actual physical body. So when I did show up to therapy, I could say, here's where I'm feeling it, here's what I'm feeling. And then we could go to that place in my body and we could start working with the emotional, mental part, spiritual parts of that, not just the physical, but I couldn't have done. I couldn't have got to therapy without doing that physical work on my mat. [01:11:36] Speaker B: Yeah, and it goes. It goes deeper. You probably heard, and listeners have probably heard the rabbit hole analogy. Like, yoga is a rabbit hole and. Or, you know, from the late 90s, early 2000s, which also is like, yoga popularity was rising in the States, you know, the yoga matrix, you know, Richard Freeman definitely captured that cultural zeitgeist moment, you know, with his audio series. For any listeners who might be familiar with that, you know, the Yoga Matrix, it's. It's very. It's very deep that you can go. So, like, speaking of, like, deep and understanding, you were talking about where yoga has come from. Do you have any perspectives on how yoga has evolved both since you've been teaching Gina and how even further back from its journey from east to West? [01:12:21] Speaker A: Well, I don't really have. I mean, I've. In all of the trainings that I've taken, we've studied, you know, the roots of yoga, and I'm. I've forgotten some of that. So I don't have a great timeline of it. I do think yoga is evolving, but again, it's not of my culture. So it feels hard to answer that question in a way that doesn't maybe come off as being like, I know everything, or I'm appropriating this culture. I think that it's hard to get my thoughts wrapped around this. I think there's a couple of things happening, at least with yoga in the west, is that, like, it is a tool of evolution for people who have been colonized by the colonial structures of our country. Right. Like. Or people in the West, I should just say, because there's a lot of Western countries that have this same kind of idea that, like, you know, there's no color and we don't have a culture. White people have culture. They do. We pretend, you know, our society pretends like they don't as this kind of Weird. I don't know. Whatever. But I think what yoga being brought to the west, it's been a great tool to help people who maybe have lost their culture or who believe they don't have a culture. For lack of a better person, or for lack of a better term, white people to, like, try to decolonize themselves. This is not an easy practice. Decolonizing your mind and body is not an easy practice, especially if you're a woman as well. Let me just throw that out there. There are so many forces that work on you to keep you within these structures and systems of power that benefit from you not waking up. And yoga has been a tool to wake people up. And it may not be the tool that people, you know, there are. I understand. I don't understand completely, but I do understand that if I was of Indian descent, I would be frustrated with this yoga world, especially as Indian teachers are predominantly kept from teaching in studios. I think that's crap. And I think it sucks. And I think it sucks that we have this, like, white women are the saviors of yoga and taking it everywhere. It's just, you know, I mean, like, that. That's also another colonial thing. It's like that's one sphere that women were given power in. And so white women went for it because that's what they're doing. Right. Because everybody wants to feel like they have agency in their lives. [01:15:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:04] Speaker A: They're not the keepers of this. I don't know that anyone necessarily is the keeper of it. I feel like yoga's like a weird, slippery, amorphous thing that can change itself, you know? [01:15:15] Speaker B: Yeah. It's always been evolving. [01:15:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And sometimes it's a tool of an oppressor, and sometimes it's a tool that. That helps you decolonize yourself from those oppressive systems. It's, I think, throughout, as an anthropologist, throughout time immemorial, we don't like change as humans. We don't want things to change. We want to say, this is mine and it's not anybody else's. But the other thing that we see across time immemorial as humans is that we are incredibly culturally adaptive. That our culture is the adaptation that we have as beings on this earth, as organisms, as animals. That's our adaptation as culture. And so it's hard because you can have one argument of, like, well, you shouldn't be doing stuff from other people's cultures. But then you have this other argument that, like, culture is the tool that we created to survive and to be world dominant. Now that's Neither good nor bad. I mean, it's kind of bad at this point. We've greatly impacted the earth from our dominance, but culture was the tool that we used. And so I don't know. As an anthropologist, I agree with everybody. I get it. Cultural appropriation is awful. So is capitalism. So is racism and white supremacy and all of these isms that are systems of oppression. Right. And I think for a lot of people, yoga has been this amazing force that's opened them up to being more compassionate, more accepting of other people outside of themselves, more willing to do the work of decolonization, more willing to, like, understand that we're all connected. We can't all evolve if we can't have access to different philosophical systems of evolution, which there are many, yoga being one. Is there injustice in the world around the practices of yoga? For sure, yeah. There's injustice around everything. As long as humans are humans, there will be injustice in this world. Is it our responsibility as humans to work towards the making there be less injustice? Yes. Is yoga one of the tools that helps us do that? For sure it is. I don't know how to honor it and also, like, not in that same way. How do we. Okay, here's a question for myself. And maybe everybody is like, how do we honor where yoga has come from and the people that it belongs to culturally? And how do we also allow ourselves to be part of it? I don't know. [01:18:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess if anyone has any thoughts on that, reach out to [email protected] if you want to talk about it. Definitely reach out. But like Gina, as we wind down the first episode of Yoga Scussion, as we wind down this Yoga Scussion, if you were to have an elevator pitch to tell someone about yoga, what would it be? [01:18:30] Speaker A: I don't know that I would do that anymore. [01:18:34] Speaker B: Good. [01:18:36] Speaker A: When I was in yoga teacher training and I was depressed, and I was feeling a lot of relief from my depression through my yoga practice, boy, I told everybody I ever knew about yoga. I was the most proselytized in Yoga Girl out there. I don't think I would do that anymore. And not because I don't love yoga or. Or want people to experience it, but I often feel like when someone recommends something and when they're really ardent about it, that it just pushes people away. [01:19:10] Speaker B: Yeah, it's more like an imposition. [01:19:12] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like. And I feel this myself. Like, I feel like we live in a perfectionist society that's like, you should be perfect and here's all the ways to do that, and here's all the products to buy to do that, which is, again, we're going back to that capitalism stuff. And so, yeah, I mean, I used to just really, you know, people would come up to me and they'd be like, I don't feel good. My body hurts, and this is going on. What should I do? And I'd be like, okay, do these poses every day. You're gonna feel so good. I would do that. And I would, like, try to get people to come to class. I mean, I was. I was like the yoga advertisement. I was a walking advertisement for yoga. But I think too often in our society, in particular, that we use yoga as a way to perfect ourselves in terms of, like, all of those social structures. Right. You know, yoga makes me sexier because I'm gonna get skinnier. I've never gotten skinnier from doing yoga. You know, I've gotten stronger. Or yoga's gonna make me a better person because I'll meditate now. And we know everyone who meditates is just better than people who don't. No, they're not. [01:20:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:26] Speaker A: No, they're not. Will it make you calmer? Yeah. Will it make you more. Will it give you less reactionary stuff and more. More time to think before you react and do or say something that's hurtful? Yes. Yes, it will. And that will make you feel better because you won't have to apologize to people as much and you won't have to forgive yourself as much for acting out when you're being triggered by something. Oh, yoga will make me more flexible, and that makes me better because blah, blah, blah, it will make you more flexible, but you're not better. You're not better than someone who's not flexible. You might live a little longer because your body is getting more range of movement, but you're not better than someone who dies sooner than you. Right? So now I would say if someone's, like, gonna go to yoga, I'd be like, cool, cool. I wanna know what your thoughts are. But I'm not gonna tell anyone to go to yoga, and I'm not gonna try to get people to go to yoga. I think if someone experiences me as a yoga teacher and they like that vibe, they'll come back and I'll be happy to see them again. But I don't want to use my teaching as a way to make people feel like they're not good enough or that they need yoga in some way. Like, we're all on Our paths, whether it's conscious or subconscious. And I'm very grateful that my path took me to yoga and that it. That I have it as a tool in my toolbox, along with a ton of other tools that I used to get closer to myself. Right. To know the essence of myself. But I don't know that I would tell people to go to yoga anymore. [01:22:03] Speaker B: Yeah. I think I've been trying to think about, like, what. Because you're like, oh, I don't want to give them elevator pitch. So, like, how could I distill what Gina is saying into something like, pithy or whatever? And I think what's coming to mind is yoga maybe isn't a pathway to perfect, but it's a pathway to practice and experimentation and go to town. Yeah, like, have some fun and let me know what you think. [01:22:27] Speaker A: Yeah, have some fun and let me know what you think. And, like, maybe it isn't for everybody. Yoga's challenging. Like, you said you didn't like your first class. I've met so many people who are like, I hated that experience, including myself. Yoga's hard. The physical practice of moving through a flow class is hard, you know, but also, like you said, there are these moments of samadhi where you are like, there are these moments of great revelation. I remember being in a restore class and just being hit by knowledge of myself in this world and what's going on. And it was like, whoa. [01:23:09] Speaker B: Yep. Universe is talking to you in those moments. [01:23:12] Speaker A: Yeah. That's what yoga can provide as well. Besides being flexible and less reactive and all of those things. I mean, there's so many benefits. Actually, one of my questions that I forgot to ask you was because I got a little ahead of myself, was about the many benefits of yoga and how there's a movement right now to have yoga be a secular practice and kind of to divorce it from culturalism so that we can anesthetize ourselves from that cultural appropriation piece. But, yeah, there's so many benefits to yoga, and I don't think I'd preach about it to people unless they asked me. If someone asked me, I would tell them. But I'm not just going to go out and proselytize about yoga because I think it does the opposite, actually. And I think it makes people. It pushes them away because it's like, oh, you think you're better than me because you do yoga? No, babes, I ain't better than nobody. But, yeah, I think if someone asked me, I would. I would tell them what I. I would Tell them all that stuff like there's so many benefits and you'll have to experience it for yourself. And I hope you would do it with me. And if you don't, that's okay too, because there's so many great yoga teachers out there. [01:24:32] Speaker B: There's more of that raw and maybe rare than it should be authenticity from Gina Klingerman that I love and hopefully many other listeners are also appreciating. Gina, I think we maybe are at the end of the first Yoga Scussion. Is there anything else you might want to say before we end the episode for listeners? [01:24:55] Speaker A: Oh, I just always worry that folks will think I have all the answers and I sure don't. It's complex being a human and there's so much going on and I just hope that everyone out there knows that these are hard times and touchy topics and we're just, you and I, Brendan, are here exploring these topics together. And I just hope that people listen with kindness in their hearts towards us and towards me and towards these topics. Because, yeah, we're just all learning. We're all on the same different paths but heading in the same direction. [01:25:32] Speaker B: Yeah, kindness goes a long way. So yeah, if you like this episode, feel free to give us a shout [email protected] and if you think you'd be interested in being on the show, definitely reach out. We'd love to have you on. We're looking for all sorts of different guests because yoga is something that has spread around the world and there's a variety of different perspectives and a variety of different topics for us to Yoga Scus. I want to say thank you, Gina, for your part in this beginning journey and yeah, thank you. We will wrap it up. All right, bye bye bye. What did you think of the first Yoga Scution? In addition to email, you can also reach out on the socials. We're on Blue sky, mastodon, Instagram and YouTube. If you really liked the first episode of the show, you may want to know that you can get early access to ad free episodes of the entire Growing Yoga Discussion archive as well as live recordings. Want to submit comments and questions to the guests and the hosts? Join the Yoga Scussion Circle and receive a link to join each Yoga Scussion episode as it is recorded. During the recording, you will have the chance to ask questions and participate in the the Yoga Scussion. Feel good about being a sustaining member of the show while also joining the Yoga Scussion. We look forward to you joining us. [01:27:17] Speaker A: Sa.